Legalise some drugs, outlaw others?

Alcohol and tobacco are fine, yet presently they cause the most physical and mental damage to humans of any drug. Perhaps the biggest killers of humans on the planet, except for war.

Ecstasy and marijuana don't seem to do much damage, but because of illegality and limited use the potential damage is unknown.

Alcohol and tobacco are massive earners for corporations.

Ecstasy and marijuana only make money for underground drug cartels.

Some are legal.

Some are not.

kennas said:

Alcohol and tobacco are fine, yet presently they cause the most physical and mental damage to humans of any drug. Perhaps the biggest killers of humans on the planet, except for war.

Ecstasy and marijuana don't seem to do much damage, but because of illegality and limited use the potential damage is unknown.

Alcohol and tobacco are massive earners for corporations.

Ecstasy and marijuana only make money for underground drug cartels.

Some are legal.

Some are not.

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I know someone who resembles me who's had em all.

Legalise the whole kit and caboodle.

They are not as good as people make out.

gg

Garpal Gumnut said:

I know someone who resembles me who's had em all.

Legalise the whole kit and caboodle.

They are not as good as people make out.

gg

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I've seen and heard different stories.

I've witnessed people chain smoking for no real apparent gain. Nicotine is such an insidious drug that it doesn't give you a recognisable high but traps you nonetheless.

A quiet drink is quite nice but I've also seen drunken fights, heard about alcohol related domestic violence, and what is the road toll associated with drink driving?

I've also witnessed people on all sorts of stuff being extremely sociable, happy, totally content, and entirely relaxed.

Objectively assessing the overall social situation we have in regards to all available drugs vexes me.

I'm vexed...

So what would you like to see legal and what not, Kennas?

If we would all like to see our cares dissipate amongst the delicious haze of morphine, shall we all just line up for our share?

Ditto heroin, cocaine, whatever you like?

Wow a topic I have experience in.

Dope, like all things in moderation great but it can become habitual and not such a good thing. Given the amount of people who consume, why not produce it like any other commodity, tax the crap out of and stop wasting police resources policing it. Dont see to many stoners wanting to pick fights, most are happy to sit on the couch.

Herion, in it pure form has no long lasting detrimental effects on health, unfortunately it is rarely pure. Would rather see it somehow legalized, the cost to the community due to addicts robbing and theiving is to great. A drug that the majority should stay way clear of due to its addictivness. Cannot remember the stats but it is only the minority of herion users that become full blown addicts.

Ectasy - if it is good quality you will not find a better feeling. The book, Brave New World by Aldous Leonard Huxley describes a very similar drug. Unfortunately what is around today is not MDMA. If you can find the stuff, go home to your lover, take a small amount and have the most wonderful sex you have ever had in your life.

Speed/Meth. Society can live without it.

Coke, not my thing, have no opinion.

Acid, only for the strong mind, but if you wish to see the world in a different light and are with trusted friends it is a trip. Going to the Zoo on it and talking to the animals is a blast.

Tobacco - ban it

Alcohol - all the above is less harmful to ones self and society.

How to move forward on legalisation of drugs, no idea, maybe give everyone a sample and see what they say.

Cheers

trust the great man himself to have the answer...

Julia said:

So what would you like to see legal and what not, Kennas?

If we would all like to see our cares dissipate amongst the delicious haze of morphine, shall we all just line up for our share?

Ditto heroin, cocaine, whatever you like?

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Decriminalisation does not necessarily equate to an increase in usage. The Scandinavian experience has been many drugs declining in usage once they become decriminalised.

Illicit substances are so easy to obtain nowadays anyway, the effect (IMO) on the populace decriminalisation will have is:
a. Less side effects due to a purer product
b. Those who have substance abuse problems will be treated for thsoe problems, not the associated criminality that accompanies the majority of those with a problem
c. A huge boost to the taxpayer in the form of levies on said substances, and
d. Our police force and criminal justice system will be able to allocate their resources to other problems in society, hopefully making law enforecement more effective

I doubt most politicians could publically state a position in favour of decriminalisation, given the inevitable conservative backlash that would accompany and statement.

kennas said:

...Ecstasy and marijuana don't seem to do much damage, but because of illegality and limited use the potential damage is unknown...

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Yes, I have often wondered why alcohol and smokes are legal and when they can be as damaging to the body as those that are illegal. It seems to be well established now that a little wine is actually good for the body, but it's the excesses and subsequent addictions that can be so damaging.

I think marijuana does do more damage than people think. I believe it's the psychotic effect from regular use that is so dangerous and insidious, IMO. Here is a blog where people have recorded their withdrawal symptoms. Pretty rough to come off it... http://addiction-dirkh.blogspot.com/2007/10/marijuana-withdrawal.html

Julia said:

So what would you like to see legal and what not, Kennas?

If we would all like to see our cares dissipate amongst the delicious haze of morphine, shall we all just line up for our share?

Ditto heroin, cocaine, whatever you like?

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I would legalise everything. Adults have the right to make their own decisions and if that means getting high on morphine so be it. i know a lot of drug takers that would never do it as IV drugs have a much 'harder' stigma attached to them

Mofra said:

Decriminalisation does not necessarily equate to an increase in usage. The Scandinavian experience has been many drugs declining in usage once they become decriminalised.

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Exactly. Portugual had the same thing. Usuage went down, and those admitting themselves to rehab went up. It was almost as though when it became legal people were more likely to seek help as they would not be looked down upon by society

sails said:

Yes, I have often wondered why alcohol and smokes are legal and when they can be as damaging to the body as those that are illegal. It seems to be well established now that a little wine is actually good for the body, but it's the excesses and subsequent addictions that can be so damaging.

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Alcohol and tobacco are legal due to historic reasons only and consistent lobbying. If one of them was 'invented' today no way it would be legal.

I have also been informed that MDMA (in its pure form) is one of the best experiences in life and this informant encourages everyone who can get hold of relatively pure stuff to try it and put on some of your favourite music with your favourite friends...

prawn_86 said:

I have also been informed that MDMA (in its pure form) is one of the best experiences in life and this informant encourages everyone who can get hold of relatively pure stuff to try it and put on some of your favourite music with your favourite friends...

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Most pills sold in Australia at the moment contain little/no MDMA - all sorts of stuff finds its way into them. Government controlled (and profitted ) supply would change.

Excessive abuse of MDMA (like any drug) can have long term effects - the sacs of fluid in the brain have been known to expand after prolonged abuse (and we're talking hard-core ravers using it heavily, weekly, for years). It can also effect the way the brain elicits mood regulation - again, we're talking about effects that are less serious than the equivalent alcohol-related effects.

Mofra said:

Most pills sold in Australia at the moment contain little/no MDMA - all sorts of stuff finds its way into them. Government controlled (and profitted ) supply would change.

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Agreed on both counts, however in certain circles there is a limited supply of pure molly which is mind blowing. A lot of the pills now contain MDxx (MDEA, MDMx etc etc) which are all similar analouges, but have slightly different effects. Providing you know what you are getting and what effect each type has then thats ok. What is dangerous is when dealers sell it as something its not.

Mofra said:

Excessive abuse of MDMA (like any drug) can have long term effects - the sacs of fluid in the brain have been known to expand after prolonged abuse (and we're talking hard-core ravers using it heavily, weekly, for years). It can also effect the way the brain elicits mood regulation - again, we're talking about effects that are less serious than the equivalent alcohol-related effects.

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Yes, it takes the brain about 7 - 10 days to restore the seratonin levels to normal after a night of using MDMA. If you use again within this period the high will not be as good and that is when they suspect the damage occurs as your brain has not had time to fully replenish itself so to speak.

Taking the appropriate vitamins & minerals can help aid this recovery although im not aware of many actual studies focusing on this area.

Interesting also to see that MDMA (pure stuff produced by pharma co's) has been approved for trials for post traumatic stress disorders (mainly war vets) in Israel, Canada and Switzerland.


All this is only what has been relayed to me by others as I have no intention of breaking the glorious laws of this country

prawn_86 said:

...Yes, it takes the brain about 7 - 10 days to restore the seratonin levels to normal after a night of using MDMA. If you use again within this period the high will not be as good and that is when they suspect the damage occurs as your brain has not had time to fully replenish itself so to speak.

Taking the appropriate vitamins & minerals can help aid this recovery although im not aware of many actual studies focusing on this area....

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I don't understand otherwise healthy people taking the risk of upsetting normal brain processes for a possible short term pleasure? We are only given one brain to last us a life time and mental impairment is a terrible thing.

prawn_86 said:

]Interesting also to see that MDMA (pure stuff produced by pharma co's) has been approved for trials for post traumatic stress disorders (mainly war vets) in Israel, Canada and Switzerland.

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If that's a possible theraputic use, that's one thing. But to use this on an otherwise healthy brain seems unbelievable...

prawn_86 said:

I would legalise everything. Adults have the right to make their own decisions and if that means getting high on morphine so be it. i know a lot of drug takers that would never do it as IV drugs have a much 'harder' stigma attached to them...

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Agree that adults have the right to make their own decisions provided it doesn't affect anyone else. But perhaps "adults" should think about what will happen when these sorts of drugs have rendered their brains all but useless. Who should pick up the bill for their care? What about family who have not participated in drug use but then find themselves carers of those who have?

Very interesting timing in this thread.

A group of friends and I are currently writing submissions for the Government against their latest round of idiotic policy attempts to make everything illegal.

We have started a campaign sponsorship request on GetUp to try and leverage their power on this issue.

I have been canvassing the link all day, across many forums, but originally decided not to post it to ASF because I thought the reaction would be mostly negative.

To be clear, the new "model schedules" are even more broad and more vague than the last set. They are attempting to schedule all plants containing the chemical "DMT" (an already illegal substance), which in essence, outlaws the plant that is our national emblem! I have seen other plants listed on the new model schedule growing over grannys fences and in front of police stations.

Under these proposals, picking a single leaf from this Wattle would technically carry the same prosecution penalty as an equivalent weight in heroin.

If you want to help out you can vote for the GetUp campaign suggestion here:
http://suggest.getup.org.au/forums/...deral-illegalisation-of-thousands-o?ref=title

If you have any scientific, medical or social professional experience with drugs/plants then please write a submission directly to the Government (you can PM me for more info in this regard).

In the page is also included the link to the Govs new consultation proposal.

sails said:

I don't understand otherwise healthy people taking the risk of upsetting normal brain processes for a possible short term pleasure? We are only given one brain to last us a life time and mental impairment is a terrible thing.

If that's a possible theraputic use, that's one thing. But to use this on an otherwise healthy brain seems unbelievable...

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To me smoking seems unbelievable, but plenty of people do it.

You could live a 'clean & pure' life and still drop dead at an early age, or be killed in a car crash etc etc. Life is to be enjoyed and to be honest if you are slightly careful the risks are extremely minimal (no more risk than being an innocent bystander in a bar fight). Have a look at some studies and you will see the main damage comes from impurities, rather than the actual active drug that people are seeking.

You would be surprised by the amount of people that take illegal drugs. I know plenty of drs, dentists, lawyers etc etc who do it and no-one would know the difference. I guess its a form of escapism

I do wonder if we started from scratch but with full understanding of each drugs physical and social effects would we end up with a different set of laws?

I think anything that causes significant physical damage and therefore cost to the individual, family and friends, and community would be on the outer.

Anything that causes significant social problems or takes people out of society would have to go.

So, ban everything?

Or, maybe any drug in moderation and controlled is OK?

If it can be controlled and taken in moderation...

I had this conversation with someone very recently.

My point of view, as having prohibition relating to Alcohol in the 1920's/USA, if it's not working, take a different approach.

• Legalise all drugs

• The tax win-fall that the Gov will receive will easily pay for mental health x10 etc etc. 50% profit by law goes towards the health system

• It will put an end to underworld garbage that is going on

• Have a 'education revolution' about drugs and implement a drug harm minimization policy that all teenagers must do while at school, before year 10

• Put strict laws for driving under the influence, very strict!

I started thinking about this topic more and more recently due to what's going on in Mexico. 30,000 plus have been killed in the past 4 years or so. It won't stop any time soon while the demand is there and they can provide the product.

kennas said:

I started thinking about this topic more and more recently due to what's going on in Mexico. 30,000 plus have been killed in the past 4 years or so. It won't stop any time soon while the demand is there and they can provide the product.

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Im annoyed i cant remember where i saw it but i came across some interesting financial arguments against the legalisation theory. Here they are as i remember them:

1. A black market means cash, cash means purchases which in turns means the economy is stimulated. Drug dealers et al do tend to live it large so they spend their money quickly in a llot of circumstances
2. Employment. Many people are employed/hired through the druug trade
3. Purchases. Legal products need to be purchased in order to make illegal drugs, once again stimulating the economy.

The first one was the main point in that the billions of dollars floating around eventually filter back into the economy anyway and if the gov was to legalise then these billions (possibly more than what they could make via taxation) of dollars would dissappear

prawn_86 said:

You could live a 'clean & pure' life and still drop dead at an early age, or be killed in a car crash etc etc.

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Yes, but why would you want to reduce your chances by using substances that are likely to further reduce your lifespan?

You all go on about how there are not the stats which show illicit drugs to be more harmful than legal drugs. Have you for a moment considered that this might be because a small proportion of the population uses illicit drugs and therefore quite obviously the stats will be skewed accordingly.

If any comparative studies have been done over a lifetime considering the differences in health outcomes betwen those who have used e.g. alcohol and those who have used illegal drugs, I'd be interested for you to offer these.


Plus when someone dies, who is going to front up and say 'well, Mr Coroner, I think it might have something to do with all the heroin, cocaine, et al he has pushed into his veins for dozens of years'?

Are you able to quote controlled, randomised, double blind, longitudinal trials which adequately demonstrate that the long term use of the above drugs do not have a deleterious effect?

Life is to be enjoyed and to be honest if you are slightly careful the risks are extremely minimal (no more risk than being an innocent bystander in a bar fight).

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Really? I'm sure you will have no problem in providing proof of the above statement.
i.e. a controlled trial showing no more risk in filling your veins with heroin than happening to witness a bar fight.

Have a look at some studies and you will see the main damage comes from impurities, rather than the actual active drug that people are seeking.

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Quite obviously stuffing your blood supply with the variously horrible substances which the main drug is cut with is going to be potentially lethal, so why in the name of god would you do it???

Is your life so pathetically dull and boring, so lacking in stimulation, that you have to create an artificial euphoria from some synthetic compound?

You would be surprised by the amount of people that take illegal drugs. I know plenty of drs, dentists, lawyers etc etc who do it and no-one would know the difference. I guess its a form of escapism

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So what if so called professional people take drugs? Why are you presenting this sad fact as something that you seem to feel legitimises their use?

How do you know what the eventual outcomes have been or will be for these people?

Doctors and dentists, e.g. have no need to access 'illicit' supplies of impure drugs.
They can, and do, very easily access the most pure pharmacological form of whatever they want. All it takes is the dishonesty and lack of ethics to dole out prescriptions for patients who never receive the drugs. Many a drug habit has been so sustained for many, many years. I hardly think your pointing to these people's drug habits as validity for your argument has the slightest drop of merit. They derive their drugs by means every bit as criminal as the pushers.

And further, I can tell you that I've seen the results of this drug use and the eventual outcome is too horrible to describe here.

But, hey, just rock on stuffing your minds and bodies with rubbish. I expect the great Australian medical system will be there for you when you either overdose or experience the inevitable long term results of such abuse.