Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Global Warming - How Valid and Serious?

What do you think of global warming?

  • There is no reliable evidence that indicates global warming (GW)

    Votes: 8 5.2%

  • There is GW, but the manmade contribution is UNPROVEN (brd),- and we should ignore it

    Votes: 12 7.8%

  • Ditto - but we should act to reduce greenhouse gas effects anyway

    Votes: 46 30.1%

  • There is GW, the manmade contribution is PROVEN (brd), and the matter is not urgent

    Votes: 6 3.9%

  • Ditto but corrective global action is a matter of urgency

    Votes: 79 51.6%

  • Other (plus reasons)

    Votes: 7 4.6%
  • Total voters
    153
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wayneL said:
On this issue, we need leaders of action, not waffle (and largely discredited waffle at that).
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well I would have thought that a Nobel Peace Prize was hardly a discredit to Al Gore for instance.

And btw, I was fair dinkum when I said that voting Howard out was (imo) a massive contribution to countering Global Warming.

Aus is finally "on board" with Kyoto.
and looks like 80+ % (about 84%) of people have voted here that they agree with that general sentiment - certainly that action was necessary.
 
chops_a_must said:
Unfortunately for the warming deniers, green groups have quite a good track record when it comes to energy calls. It's pretty rare, but I share something in common with some of those nut job right wingers in the US, including that creep Kudlow. They just call it energy independence...
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Which green groups are you talking about?

IMO environmentalists have been absolutely right about energy. And conservationists have been absolutely wrong. Unfortunately most Australians don't seem to realise that the two are very, very different in practically every way.:2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
Which green groups are you talking about?

IMO environmentalists have been absolutely right about energy. And conservationists have been absolutely wrong. Unfortunately most Australians don't seem to realise that the two are very, very different in practically every way.:2twocents
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Yeah, I'm talking mainly about the ones I have contact with at the ISTP, which yes, are largely environmentalists rather than conservationists.
 
2020hindsight said:
well I would have thought that a Nobel Peace Prize was hardly a discredit to Al Gore for instance.

And btw, I was fair dinkum when I said that voting Howard out was (imo) a massive contribution to countering Global Warming.

Aus is finally "on board" with Kyoto.
and looks like 80+ % (about 84%) of people have voted here that they agree with that general sentiment - certainly that action was necessary.
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2020

Awards won't do the job (a load of BS), neither will governments, it's you and me that have to do it.

Governments may have a role incentivizing the unthinking masses, but it is action (and demand for solutions) by individuals that matter.
 
wayneL said:
2020

Awards won't do the job (a load of BS), neither will governments, it's you and me that have to do it.

Governments may have a role incentivizing the unthinking masses, but it is action (and demand for solutions) by individuals that matter.
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Wayne
you say we should demand solutions ...
then you say governments won't fix it ???

I'm confused.
I can tell you that whether or not you or I or the entire western world walk to the pub is so insignificant it doesn't matter. :2twocents

Apart from the fact that I personally believe we will all eventually come round to nuclear (** see note) - I notice that Bush wants US cars to use 40% less fuel in the near / forseeable future - now we're getting somewhere !!

See - one man (or two) going about his business setting a good example ( as you say) - ain't gonna achieve that.

As I've said before, I don't think you'll find quite so many suburban 4 wheel drive tanks around in the very near future. Resale value bound to dive. And filling up the tank would be just a wasteful reminder each few days of the mess we are heading into. Damned if I'd buy one - even if I could afford it .

USA has already been there !! mid 1970s - massive scare - cars suddenly smaller etc - Blind Freddy could see it happening then . - and now. How the hell could they have let the (petrol-guzzling) genie out of fhe bottle again . sheesh.

PS ** OBVIOUSLY the other thing is the opportunity for alternatve energysources. I'd love it if alternatives like wind power photovoltaic solar cells could do the job. I used to import solar powered novelties back in the early 80's, but the concept was a bit ahead of its time.

Stern report !! now there's a positive outlook to take on board. It will cost us more NOT to act than to act. For mine it's a no brainer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6096084.stm
Climate change fight 'can't wait'
The world cannot afford to wait before tackling climate change, the UK prime minister has warned.
A report by economist Sir Nicholas Stern suggests that global warming could shrink the global economy by 20%.

But taking action now would cost just 1% of global gross domestic product, the 700-page study says.

Tony Blair said the Stern Review showed that scientific evidence of global warming was "overwhelming" and its consequences "disastrous".

International response

The review coincides with the release of new data by the United Nations showing an upward trend in emission of greenhouse gases - a development for which Sir Nicholas said that rich countries must shoulder most of the responsibility.


Graph: How new CO2 targets could curb emissions
And Chancellor Gordon Brown promised the UK would lead the international response to tackle climate change.

The BBC's Nick Robinson said that, while the Stern Review did not recommend specific tax rises, upping the cost of flying - both people and goods - and driving was on the agenda of all three main political parties.

Environment Secretary David Miliband said the Queen's Speech would now feature a climate bill to establish an independent Carbon Committee to "work with government to reduce emissions over time and across the economy".
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2020hindsight said:
Wayne
you say we should demand solutions ...
then you say governments won't fix it ???

I'm confused.
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Gu'mints won't do what costs them government. That's why REAL measures are not being implemented. However if we demand REAL measures. the government will facilitate it


I can tell you that whether or not you or I or the entire western world walk to the pub is so insignificant it doesn't matter. :2twocents
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Again you disingenuously trivialize the individual's effort. It is not a matter of "walking to the pub", there are dozens of actions an individual can do that collectively make a massive difference.

*****

You know what? F### it! If it's insignificant, I'm going to become a squawker rather than a doer and drive to the bloody pub anyway! Why make my life hard when all the other squawkers are riding around in limousines?

I can afford the 4x4 and the petrol at $300 a barrel, so what the hell? Not even Al Bore gives a damn.

To be frank, its all BS. If the world is doomed, I'm going out in style.
 
wayneL said:
Gu'mints won't do what costs them government. That's why REAL measures are not being implemented. However if we demand REAL measures. the government will facilitate it

Again you disingenuously trivialize the individual's effort. It is not a matter of "walking to the pub", there are dozens of actions an individual can do that collectively make a massive difference.

*****

You know what? F### it! If it's insignificant, I'm going to become a squawker rather than a doer and drive to the bloody pub anyway! Why make my life hard when all the other squawkers are riding around in limousines?

I can afford the 4x4 and the petrol at $300 a barrel, so what the hell? Not even Al Bore gives a damn.

To be frank, its all BS. If the world is doomed, I'm going out in style.
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Kurt Vonnegut - his last book ended in a poem .......
When the last living thing has died on account of us, how poetical it would be if earth could say in a voice floating up, perhaps from the floor of the Grand Canyon, it is done, people did not like it here.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/for...gut#post224770

Wayne, I find your attitude is a strange one, no doubt you believe you are somehow being consistent.

You say I am disingenuous - sure "walking to the pub" is intended to mean things that are relatively trivial compared to a swing away from fossil fuels.

Incidentally, I believe I told you I own a small 4 cyl car, and live in a fibro house etc . whatever - but don't assume , (when you demand "what are you doing"), that you are doing more than me.

And incidentally I was also sincere whatever when I said I had just sent a container of manufactured goods to China. Obviously I was referring to the fact that you can claim very little carbon footprint because you aren't involved ( as I understand it) in building things (as I am). And hence in the average day, if you add the energy to machine steel ( as efficiently as I can possible design it to be) then yes, I probably do make a bigger carbon footprint that you in your equine environment :2twocents

THen again I probably bring more money into the Aus economy lol - (specially since you now live in UK) ;)

PS If Al Gore drives a big car - and my guess is it's not as big as claimed but I may stand to be corrected - then he should sell it and get a smaller one. But I still maintain his principle job has been to educate. And his message is not somehow "blackballed" because he has a big car. (allegedly), imo.

I would reserve stronger criticism for J Howard, who refused even to meet with Gore. "I don't get my facts from movies" etc tc - then a month or three later of course , changing his mind. As Hawke said, Howard should have been paying for road maintenance of the Road to Damascus for the past 12 months.
 
How is it that so-called "educators" are exempt from making an effort?

I'll tell you one educator who has my utmost respect - David Suzuki. That man walks the walk and has done for as long as I can remember. Where's his peace prize?

Al Bore should have got the prize for slick marketing and politics, not peace.

***

I just bought a Hummer and drove it to the pub. I preached at all in attendance that they should reduce their carbon footprint. It did bun-outs in the car park and drove home... I even took the long way because there was a song on the radio I liked. I've just turned up the heating too.... doesn't matter hey, I'm spreading the message.
 
Global Warming: Point of No Return?

whether or not the sea actually does rise 6m, even 1 metre will be a disaster. :2twocents

lol - maybe add this one for a lighter note ..

skating , past the point of no return-
these two from Lithuania - with 80% of their energy from nuclear energy, they are entitled to all the ice that's available ;)
they make 5.4tonnes to Aus's 25tonnes and USA's 24 tonnes per capita.

we need to change the colour of aus to a lesser shade of red ( both in the map and in the fuel source percentage graph) :2twocents
 

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Dr. Michael Oppenheimer is a professor of Geosciences and International Affairs at Princeton University, and a leading scholar on global warming. For Dr. Oppenheimer, global warming is a scientific fact that could "remake the face of the Earth." "Scientists agree there's no longer really any argument," says Oppenheimer. "The climate is changing. Human beings are largely responsible, and it's just going to keep getting warmer until we act to remove the pollution."

From studying climate patterns over time, Dr. Oppenheimer says global warming is not a natural shift. "The last 50 years stick out like a sore thumb," he says. "The temperature's gone up and up and up. It bears the imprint of human activity."

The 1990s alone were the warmest decade of the last century. Temperatures rose one degree Fahrenheit. That may not sound like a lot, but in scientific terms, that's a big deal. "Over the next 10 to 30 years, Earth could be as much as three degrees warmer than today," says Dr. Oppenheimer. "By 50 years from now, Earth could be five degrees or so warmer than today."
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http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200510/20051027/slide_20051027_350_103.jhtml


"Come on in, the waters boiling " anyone remeber that advert ? they should do a Global Warming version :eek:
 
spooly74 said:
Dr. Oppenheimer on all aspects of climate change (25mins)

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ripper spooly.

Interesting that most cars put out about their own weight in CO2e per annum. Also IPCC is totally (majority?) manned by volunteers, etc

I notice that (apart from smaller cars). compact fluorescents get a rap - quarter the power etc -

there's a little matter of the mercury they leave behind when they are trashed, but no doubt that too will be addressed one day - special disposal etc :eek:
 
Huge move by the UK in the War on Warming ..... might set the pace perhaps ?


Coal-fired power stations, airport expansions and new road schemes could all be put on hold following a decision by Gordon Brown that ministers must in future take account of the true economic cost of climate change damage.

Ministers have been instructed to factor into their calculations a notional "carbon price" when making all policy and investment decisions covering transport, construction, housing, planning and energy.

That price - which will increase annually - is intended to frame all day-to-day policy and investment decisions for the next 30 years.

As a result carbon-free or clean technologies, including nuclear power, have been given a significant boost as they will now become relatively less expensive than polluting technologies.

The "shadow price for carbon", representing the cost to society of the environmental damage, has already been agreed for every year up to 2050 by government economists. It will be set at £25.50 a carbon tonne for 2007, rising annually to £59.60 a tonne by 2050.

The climate change minister, Phil Woolas, said: "This will have huge implications for [the] government. If for instance a new power station is due to cost £1bn, but it will add £200m worth of carbon emissions, we will decide that the cost of the power station is £1.2bn, even though its cash price is £1bn. We are creating a new currency."
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/dec/22/climatechange.carbonemissions
 
2020hindsight said:
.............. past the point of no return-
these two from Lithuania - with 80% of their energy from nuclear energy, they are entitled to all the ice that's available ;)
they make 5.4tonnes to Aus's 25tonnes and USA's 24 tonnes per capita.

we need to change the colour of aus to a lesser shade of red ( both in the map and in the fuel source percentage graph) :2twocents
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2020,

what do France and lithuania(and the other major nuclear power generating countries) do with all that waste?
 
professor_frink said:
2020,

what do France and lithuania(and the other major nuclear power generating countries) do with all that waste?
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I have always reckoned they should send that toxic timebomb waste deep into space, build giant rockets and send it on a one way ticket to pluto, its only natural , living creatures eject their waste , earth is a living creature !


Since the 1950’s, high-level nuclear waste has been accumulating at nuclear power plants and munitions factories around the world. According to the IAEA, by the year 2000 around 224,000 tonnes of spent fuel had been generated globally from nuclear power plants. Apart from spent fuel sent to reprocessing plants, all of the spent fuel is stored at nuclear power plants waiting for a long-term solution to be found. No country in the world has yet been able to build a long-term high level nuclear waste facility.
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http://www.nuclearfreeaustralia.com.au/articles/4-problems-with-the-nuclear-fuel-cycle/v-waste-repositories

Australia is actually considered the most suitable place in the world geologically and assumably politically to store nuclear waste, I wouldnt be too surprised that if at some time in the future we get pushed into becoming just that.
 
2020hindsight said:
thanks nc
and (imo) it's easier to store nuclear waste than to try to stop the tide coming in twice a day :eek:
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That's not really answering the question 2020. But I wasn't really expecting you too, as I already knew the answer, I just wanted to bring it up though:)
It seems to be something that is brushed over pretty consistently by the "green" movement. Mainly due to the fact that radioactive waste is anything but green. But then again, so is uranium mining.

Numbercruncher,

thanks for the response.

I really hope you're wrong about us being a radioactive wasteland for "green" countries like Lithuania and France. Though it wouldn't surprise me if you are right. 2020, you are always carrying on about how will our kids and grandkids will remember us in 50 years time- wonder how they'll remember us for creating 2 headed kangaroos under the banner of "looking after the environment":eek:
 
professor_frink said:
2020, you are always carrying on about how will our kids and grandkids will remember us in 50 years time- wonder how they'll remember us for creating 2 headed kangaroos under the banner of "looking after the environment":eek:
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well- maybe we'll end up with two-headed aussies - and we can put our heads together and work it out :eek:
two heads better than none?

PS prof, I've told you a million times not to exagerate ;)
The abs in NT have signed over a property for this use have they not (?) - maybe there was a final geological check (working on memory here)

Important that they don't have any leaching into the groundwater.


Incidentally BHP have had some nasty radioactive spills in SA - and using massive amounts of artesian water (free from SA govt) - and turning some of it into radioactive waste. :(

(I haven't read this but it should be accurate - 3 spills at Olympic etc)
http://www.mapw.org.au/mapw-commentary/submissions/05-05MAPWsubmissionWA-uraniuminquiry.doc

http://www.nukefreeaus.org/campaigns/Uranium_Mining/index.html

then again they've had worse / comparable problems with gold mining (Ok tedi etc)

http://www.greenleft.org.au/1995/206/11055
Ok Tedi
Ok Tedi Mining Limited in PNG (52% owned) is / (was) polluting the Fly River with tailings from the OK Tedi gold mine at the rate of 100,000 tonnes per day.
In 1984 the mine operators dropped 2400 drums of cyanide into Fly River, of which less than 5% were recovered.
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I've quoted this one umpteen times, but I once heard a prof saying "compared to effects of GW, Chernyobel will be a walk in the park"
 
Chernyobel?
Chernobyl whatever ;) - doh (always been lousy at spelling, specially when I'm rushin ;) )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster
The "Chernobyl disaster", or reactor accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant is the worst nuclear power plant accident in history and the only instance so far of level 7 on the International Nuclear Event Scale, resulting in a severe nuclear meltdown. On 26 April 1986 at 01:23:40 a.m. reactor number four at the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant located in the Soviet Union near Pripyat in Ukraine exploded. Further explosions and the resulting fire sent a plume of highly radioactive fallout into the atmosphere and over an extensive geographical area.

The plume drifted over parts of the western Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Northern Europe, and eastern North America. Large areas in Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia were badly contaminated, resulting in the evacuation and resettlement of over 336,000 people. According to official post-Soviet data,[1] about 60% of the radioactive fallout landed in Belarus. ... Soviets forced to be less secretive etc . safer...
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Surely we'd be wiser after that anyway!
but as I mention , GW is worse :(
 

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