Gobbledygook: Reality, Dreaming or Rubbish?

I have found the large divide in how we percieve and therefore understand our fellow travellers on ASF can lead to a lot of tension.

My hope is that this thread may examine the issues that effect good communication.

Time and outside distractions are of course just two of them. My wife for example has just called "soups on the table" so I have to go for the moment.

However feel free to jump in early to help set a suitable agenda as I go for my soup.

A very good thread plod.

Karma mate, karma, so lacking.

Or a knowledge of, I should say.

Also a knowledge of a second language, an ability to think outside the oblong, and a sense of humour would help many posters keep their knickers unknotted.

gg

Garpal Gumnut said:

, an ability to think outside the oblong,

gg

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You have hit a sailient point there gg. An oblong, as I see it, can span a page yet the sides may be as small as half an inch. So to get the thinking out laterally we really have to perhaps stretch beyond the usual. By doing that we may increase our chances of a real breakthrough. And with the increased distance there is a chance to put the foot down on it too.

Conversely to think virtically, which I suspect many of us rarely do, your illustration (or if you like abstract) allows for this aspect to come nearer to the consciousness of the now. The upper and lower restrictions (ie the long horizontal lines) are more obvious.

An oblong eh ! Take my hat off to you gg; and see you in a new light already.

G'day Explod,

not entirely sure where you're going with this, reading the esoteric conversation with Garpal I have a horrible feeling I'm out of my depth here.

On the subject of communication, I do recall my recent surprise that some posters of the female persuasion don't like the generic greeting 'hi guys' - live and learn.

Logique said:

On the subject of communication, I do recall my recent surprise that some posters of the female persuasion don't like the generic greeting 'hi guys' - live and learn.

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An excellent question and case in point. The social divide is the greatest gap and has its pieces within religion, politics, ethnic origins and very many more. In the common form it is the generation gap. But unfortunately that term is too simplistic.

Complicating matters we have the gender issues and they too are broken up into many facits on both sides. We could fence off and isolate many other areas and hope that contributors do so.

If it was my Step Grandaughter, 2nd year Uni, the expression "Guys" is not a problem, my daughter a whole new ball game. So we need to respect, but above all be aware of who we are addressing. We like to think that the plural is the singular and vice versa but it is rarely the case in the demographic of the ASF community (ie, our age group and general cultural backgrounds).

Of course many are put off becase the term is an Americanism. Have noticed it when out dining in mixed company and the young female waitress will say "Hi guys, what would we like to order?" and you can hear a pin drop for about 4 seconds.

Logique said:

G'day Explod,

not entirely sure where you're going with this, reading the esoteric conversation with Garpal I have a horrible feeling I'm out of my depth here.

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I'm pretty much with you here, Logique. Also feel a vague need for a translation from the so far impressively esoteric nature of the exchange between explod and gg.
However, happy to see it continue in the interests of elevating the intellectual content of ASF!

On the subject of communication, I do recall my recent surprise that some posters of the female persuasion don't like the generic greeting 'hi guys' - live and learn.

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OK, this was my objection, and perhaps I was being a bit cranky. I appreciate that the term is widely applied to people generically.
I just hate being addressed thus: largely because (a) it just seems thoughtless and lazy, and (b) because it's yet another Americanism that Australians seem to have embraced.

We used to say 'programme', now everywhere it's 'program'. Much of this alteration to our version of English I accept as inevitable, but being addressed as a 'guy' is something that I just dislike intensely. But probably I have to just suck it up, as the current idiom suggests.

On the thread topic, one of the obvious problems of communicating via printed screens is that we don't have the benefit of vocal tone, and facial expressions, along with body language. We all have different interpretative styles. Mine is regrettably literal, so often I don't pick it up when someone is meaning to be funny.

I'll always respect genuinely expressed comments on ASF, whether I agree with the sentiment or not. What does stifle debate, however, is the post that simply seeks to disrupt or ridicule discussion. That's what I believe has driven many of our old and excellent members away.

Good topic to raise: thanks, explod.

I'll always respect genuinely expressed comments on ASF, whether I agree with the sentiment or not. What does stifle debate, however, is the post that simply seeks to disrupt or ridicule discussion. That's what I believe has driven many of our old and excellent members away.

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Great to have your input Julia and the problem you outline is a very difficult one. Your observations are some of my own feelings of late and have wondered if in fact my defensive/offensive approach has done a lot of damage in that area.

I do believe that the chat section removal off the front page will gradually improve the quality of both the investment and the chat area' respectively. In fact just this week I found the investment/trading forums very active.

On a personal note Julia, I hope to lift a discussion we had a couple of weeks ago into this thread to indicate'more clearly where I was (or thought I was) coming from. In retrospect my assertions at that time were not entirely correct and therefore unfair.

Perhaps "guys" when addressing a mixed group is because of a lack of suitable informal dual gender greeting (that I can think of). I often use "folks", but this is seen as quaint if not ever so slightly old fashioned.

What should people use instead?

I quite like the French "messieursdammes", but of course we don't speak French.

explod said:

Of course many are put off becase the term is an Americanism. Have noticed it when out dining in mixed company and the young female waitress will say "Hi guys, what would we like to order?" and you can hear a pin drop for about 4 seconds.

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Yet waiting staff in the US won't say that in the majority of places - they are usually polite and "sir" etc. They need the tips to survive.

I know it's an example but if they said "What woudl we like to order?", the first thing I'd think is "Oh. I didn't know you were dining with us!!"

wayneL said:

What should people use instead?

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What about "Sir" and "Madam"? or "Good Evening/Morning/etc everyone. Are you ready to order?"

Original topic - we are limited by our experiences, our culture/upbringing and any prejudices that we pick up through these. Hence different views. Add to that strong personalities/egos and we can get excited. I think that is a simple way of summing it up.

I'm Ducking for cover.
Too much quackery here.

Yes waynel, I am biased.

We all want this election to go towards meeting our individual hopes, needs and desires for a better future.

However our question is beyond and off topic in this thread. Any answer, if it can be found, that can be settled between and to the satisfaction of the different parties/perspectives involved is probably improbable.

Because such a question ought to be tackled and resolved within each individual context, or if you like, within its intrinsic seperate human layers, then the defining of sentiment, judgement, control and bias as it may effect investing or trading, then perhaps we should meet in a more appropriate thread for that purpose.

As my superior on this forum wayneL, I seek your lead.

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On the 4th of September I posted this statement on the "2010 Fderal Election" thread. Julia was rightly perplexed by it. After dinner I will address myself to the gobbledygook of it all.

tech/a said:

I'm Ducking for cover.
Too much quackery here.

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There is an option here perhaps to cover a Duck.

I'm selling a put on Gobbledygook lasting for 10,000 posts. A Duck.

gg

Garpal Gumnut said:

There is an option here perhaps to cover a Duck.

I'm selling a put on Gobbledygook lasting for 10,000 posts. A Duck.

gg

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gg, as always you are a great help. Unfortunately these days one cannot use a shotgun without a licence.

Anyway, thanks for hanging around at least.

Paragraph 4 of my outburst on the 4th of November on reflection does give me considerable pain and on looking at it again was pleased to go to dinner in the hope it would go away.

Will be back in a minute or two as I need to print it off, for a full cut, paste and rearrangement

Because such a question ought to be tackled and resolved within each individual context, or if you like, within its intrinsic seperate human layers, then the defining of sentiment, judgement, control and bias as it may effect investing or trading, then perhaps we should meet in a more appropriate thread for that purpose.

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Now this paragraph, which is in fact a longwinded sentence, is what you get when someone is cornered, outnumbered and trying to shoot down the enemy whilst at the same time running away.

The life saver, if one can salvage anything, is the admission of bias.

However bias was the critical issue raised back on the 4th Nov (sic) (was the 4th September). My reason for moving this discussion to this point is that it is a sociological issue more on topic for this type thread.

We are effected, as already avered to by others above, by which side of the tracks we come from, our education and general life experiences. A statement that is perhaps biased to one may not be to another. As another already touched, an inflamitory or sexist remark may have many dozens of different effects on others.

A re-reading of my offending 4th paragraph does reveal some murmerings of these issues but it is a complex hornets nest and no one individual can in my view (now in retrospect) get the hands completely around it.

So I invite assistance in perhaps developing some good reasoned argument so that we may define some ways of improving tolerance and understanding on ASF. And still have some fun too.

Of course politics (as was the case) is always a very bad mix.

This is my type of thread, its got it all, guys, dolls, ducks, options, oblongs, misunderstandings, explanations and politics.

James Joyce, arise from your grave, all is forgiving.

gg

wayneL said:

Perhaps "guys" when addressing a mixed group is because of a lack of suitable informal dual gender greeting (that I can think of). I often use "folks", but this is seen as quaint if not ever so slightly old fashioned.

What should people use instead?

I quite like the French "messieursdammes", but of course we don't speak French.

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I like 'folks', but can see it could be old fashioned to some. What's wrong with the simple "People"?
Or on a forum like this, simply omitting any greeting and just getting to what you want to ask/say?

I'm reminded of talkback radio where every caller seems to feel obliged to greet the host and say "How are you, Bob?" Fergawdsake, the previous fifty callers have asked him he is, we have learned that he has been quite fine every time, so for pete's sake leave it out and just ask your damn question!

johenmo said:

I know it's an example but if they said "What woudl we like to order?", the first thing I'd think is "Oh. I didn't know you were dining with us!!"

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Oh, johenmo, you bring up one of my most hated expressions in nursing, where the nurse (or even occasionally the doctor), says, "and how are we today?"!!!
So stupid. The more assertive patients will feel bound to say that they have no idea how the doctor is but they themselves are feeling mightily irritated at being so patronised.

explod said:

On the 4th of September I posted this statement on the "2010 Fderal Election" thread. Julia was rightly perplexed by it. After dinner I will address myself to the gobbledygook of it all.

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Wonderful, Explod. I'm filled with anticipation.

explod said:

Now this paragraph, which is in fact a longwinded sentence, is what you get when someone is cornered, outnumbered and trying to shoot down the enemy whilst at the same time running away.

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And congratulations, explod, for such honesty. I think verbosity and obfuscation are traps we all fall into when finding it difficult to come up with a clear response.
I've often felt like this, and have eventually learned that it better furthers the discussion to simply say "sorry, but I don't understand what it is you are saying", rather than attempt to further confuse everyone by adding more words that are meaningless to anyone.

Let's remember the basic purpose of language, i.e. to communicate amongst ourselves. So usually, the simpler the better.

Then as soon as I've said this, I'm reminded of the great pleasure I have when reading e.g. Clive James who has such a gift of the expression of English that I don't much care what point he's actually making, such is the pleasure of reading or hearing the cadence of his remarks.

The life saver, if one can salvage anything, is the admission of bias.

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Doesn't this depend on the context? If we are engaging in a political discussion, then yes absolutely the acknowledgement of our biases provides added credibility.

However bias was the critical issue raised back on the 4th Nov (sic) (was the 4th September). My reason for moving this discussion to this point is that it is a sociological issue more on topic for this type thread.

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In the spirit of the thread, I'm going to admit that I don't know what you're talking about here. Could you clarify?

We are affected, as already averred to by others above, by which side of the tracks we come from, our education and general life experiences. A statement that is perhaps biased to one may not be to another.

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It's a rare human being that is able to completely eliminate personal bias.
We have a natural tendency to seek out such texts that confirm our natural bias, thus reinforcing our original feelings. That's fine from the point of view of our personal comfort levels, but bad for promotion of objectivity.

As another already touched, an inflamitory or sexist remark may have many dozens of different effects on others.

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Many dozens of different effects? Perhaps a few but not that many imo.
Sexism is not that subtle.

A re-reading of my offending 4th paragraph does reveal some murmerings of these issues but it is a complex hornets nest and no one individual can in my view (now in retrospect) get the hands completely around it.

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Sorry, but this sentence is just as confusing and unclear to me as was your original post.
(Not wanting to be critical, but if the thread is to achieve anything, I can't let this go.)

So I invite assistance in perhaps developing some good reasoned argument so that we may define some ways of improving tolerance and understanding on ASF. And still have some fun too.

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Great idea. I'd say that we can all best serve the interests of clear discussion, and ourselves, by expressing ourselves as simply and clearly as possible, without too often seeking refuge in a meaningless confusion of words.

Of course politics (as was the case) is always a very bad mix.

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Could you maybe express this somewhat differently? Not sure what you mean when you say 'politics is always a very bad mix'. Mix of what?
Political opinions/views? Differences here are inevitable and anything but bad imo.

Maury Maverick, a Texan lawyer who invented the word, "gobbledegook", said his inspiration was the turkey "always gobbledy gobbling and strutting with ludicrous pomposity."

This thread certainly fills the bill.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-gob1.htm

Thankyou Calliope for providing the " reality"

nunthewiser said:

Thankyou Calliope for providing the " reality"

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Getting a bit off topic there nune. realityreally.

Anyway, love your outfit, as a five year old at school I used to wonder what may be behind a Nun's habit.

Keep up the good work anyway, great to have you on board.

explod said:

Getting a bit off topic there nune. realityreally.

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While we are on the subject of reality explod, I am intrigued by a statement you made a few posts back, viz;

As my superior on this forum wayneL, I seek your lead.

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In what ways do you consider Wayne to be your superior? Is it in intellect, ability, politics or what?

Or is it because he is a moderator?